-- *AL DRUCKER, JULY 2003
-- THIS IS A TRANSCRIPTION OF A SOULJOURNS VIDEO INTERVIEW FOUND AT VIMEO.COM/SOULJOURNS AND AT YOUTUBE.COM/SOULJOURNS .PLEASE ENJOY AND SHARE.
Introduction: Welcome to Souljourns, an interview with Sai Baba follower Al Drucker. Drucker lived in Sai Baba’s ashram in Puttaparthi, India for 10 years, former physicist, pilot, naturopath, Drucker has written and talked extensively about eastern spirituality and Sai Baba. This interview was recorded in Grants Pass, Oregon, in July 2003.
Ted Henry: Al Drucker thanks a whole lot for agreeing to do this and to sit still while other people pick away at you lovingly.
Al Drucker: hmmm.... Ted Henry: Can I begin by asking you for those who are brand new here to Sai Baba and there are several
people for you to give us your gut feeling answer to the question that Who is Sai Baba?
Al Drucker: Sai Baba is Myself. Sai Baba is my true self. I have no other identity than that. One time I was arrested in India, this is a long answer to a short question. I was arrested in India, on the day that I was to become an Indian citizen and naturalize in India. And they arrested me because, it was alleged that I was a CIA agent, and when I refused to go with the constable who arrested me and said I have to first see Sai Baba. He agreed to that, and I went to see Swami, and Swami very graciously talked to me and when he asked me what’s happening and I said Swami they are saying I am a CIA agent. He said ‘You are CIA, You are CIA’ I said, ‘No Swami I have nothing to do with the CIA’. ‘Yes you do, You are CIA, You are Constant Integrated Awareness’. ‘You are pure Awareness, You are Constant ever unchanging and You are totally Integrated and included in ME’. That is who I am. That is what you can say you are. And that is Sai Baba. HE has come at the end of this Yuga for no other purpose but to reveal the truth of ‘WHO I AM. That I am is not this Al Drucker sitting in front of you. That ‘I am’ is the ‘I am’ that spoke out of the burning bush to Moses, and said ‘I am, that ‘am’ that is the pure Aham, the pure subjective with no regard for any thing else that could be sought of as object. There is only that I am, and that is ‘Sai Baba’ and that I am.
Ted Henry: Who is the Al Drucker of 20 to 40 years ago before he became this ‘I am’? Al Drucker: A meaningless idea in my mind that I chose to buy into, that no longer works for me, meaningless,
nothing, nothing at all.
Ted Henry: Baba wants us to know that we are God as you said now, 10 times this morning along, that this means we no longer pray?
Al Drucker: You can’t help but pray every breath is a prayer. You know in both Sanskrit and in Hebrew in both holy languages, the same word is used which is the Hebrew word for it. Both means energy, it means life, it means vitality, and it means holiness, and it means Prana, it means the power of God. That is, the constant prayer that is happening all the time. You begin to recognize that your life itself is a prayer. You don’t pray for things, you don’t pray even too... haaa... all you pray for is for the continuousness of that CIA of that constant integrated oneness with the unity and that is my life and that is your life. Whether you know it or not why not know it. I tell you it is, so be it, be it now ‘Dust if you think, dust you are. God if you think, God you are ‘. You are not dust, you are not the body, you are ‘God’.
Ted Henry: This may seem like a pretty silly question, Al Drucker: Go ahead.. Ted Henry: As you said, if, since you are Sai Baba!
Al Drucker: no, don’t do it like that,
Ted Henry: ok..do you get to see...
Al Drucker: don’t do it like that
Ted Henry: Do you get to see or feel..
Al Drucker: Excuse me, once I have to say, once I said, Swami said, Who are you? And I said, ‘Swami I am one with you. I am Baba’. He said ‘Oh that is very very good. Ok, now you go out and give darshan’!
Ted Henry: hahaha....and you did. Haha, the question is do you get to see or feel or hear intuitively in your heart or in your ears, Sai Baba much?
Al Drucker: Well its, I don’t know how to say this, its not a voice that I hear, but it is a constant dialogue that I have. I just constantly talk to Him inside, and its not that I hear a voice responding, it’s just that, it’s just, I am just always talking to Him. Swami, you know I just share my perceptions with Him. And so He is He is very much in my mind. If there is something to be done, I would generally ask Him. I mean I think always ask him first. I can honestly say that for probably 30 years I have not made any decisions on my own, not a single decision. And sometimes I am not sure what His will is? Because I still see myself as outside of Him. I mean, I fall into that all the time. It doesn’t last very long. But it it does happen. And so I’m a little bit confused as to what is Your will and I don’t here voice and so and when my buddhi is not awake at that moment when there is not that intuitive knowing, then I will use the chits and He is given that and that’s a good thing to know about and shall I just pass it on to you for a moment..
Ted Henry: Yes
Al Drucker: He said if you don’t, if you want to assess MY will and you are not sure then here is what you do, take two little pieces of paper or little pieces of cardboard or buttons or two little stones, something that you feel you can sigh some holiness to. And write on it, on one of them Yes and the other one No and on the backside put an AUM, so Yes-AUM and No-AUM, ok. And then sit in front of the altar, sit in front of, come to your little inner sanctum of holiness, in the feel that you are in, in the place that you are in, in your home preferably, and just still your mind, and then in your mind evoke my presence, MY image, and then ask the question in a way that I can answer with a Yes or No. And then just use your chits and rub it..
Ted Henry: hmmmm..
Al Drucker: And I will give you an answer this is a web phone that you have and it’s a direct line to me and I will always give you the right answer, but don’t test me. If you don’t like the answer don’t try it again. So now just think about that a moment, I’m sorry to take up more time here.
Ted Henry: Nope..
Al Drucker: But think about that a moment, this says you can get a Yes-AUM, you can get a No-AUM, you can get an AUM-AUM and you can get a Yes-No. There are four possibilities. You know we generally ask a question in such a way that we want a yes answer. Well our statistical probabilities have just gotten down to 25%, of getting that answer that we generally want. And so just trust, that the divinity will give you the write answer. And So Yes-AUM is a Yes and No-AUM is a No, a Yes-No is this is not my business, this question is not my business, you go do what you do, but I will not guide you in this one and an AUM-AUM is wait. And so wait means wait, and you don’t immediately ask again. You wait and let that is also an answer and you will see it happening.
Ted Henry: For those of us who don’t have stones or run out of stones .. Al Drucker: Use buttons
Ted Henry: or forget to keep the stones or the buttons and this is sort of related, in fact its very much related, how do we discern between the will of God and our own ego or desire?
Al Drucker: See let me, of course, I will answer as best as I can. But let me juts go back to the stones a moment, when I heard that about these chits at that time I was doing the once a week talks at the Sri Sathya Sai Institute of Higher Learning, the whole university gets together in the morning at the beginning of the school day and we sing the ‘Om Tat Sat Sri Narayana Tu’ the many names of God, as given by Mahatma Gandhi. It’s a song you know. Its is done all over India, and then one of the teachers will talk about the five great religions and will give some quotes and some little discussion from the religions. And I was given the one to do of the Torah in the Jewish religion the what we really know is the old testament and at that time I heard about these chits that I read about in its even given in Exodus where it is said that the high priest will wear a little pouch on the front with 12 stones representing the 12 tribes, you might say and in that pouch are 2 stones and those stones will always be used to assess the will of God. And so when there is a question is to what the people should do, he will, the high priest will pose that question in the inner sanctum and the stones will tell him. So here was a just, as we just heard the little bit of the Old Testament a validation or confirmation of, Swami is still teaching us the same ancient wisdom, it never really changes. Whether it be from the old testament or from any other mystical religion and where great beings have come into their own truth. Alright so how do we know that we are following the will of God? What Swami says is ‘everyone has a conscience you know what is right and you know what is not right, you will know it by how you feel, you will know if you feel some guilt or if you feel some fear or if you feel anything other than great peace and happiness, if that’s what you feel you could be sure it is not MY will. And if you feel just an inner sense of serenity and wholeness know that that is MY will.’
Ted Henry: Good question here.. Al Drucker: And that’s very easy to come to if you just pay attention to it, again a CIA. Ted Henry: Somebody wants to know when were you first aware of the existence of God?
Al Drucker: Well when I was a little boy, this was in the time before Hitler, it is before 1933 and before Hitler came to power. At that time the great foot of German hero was a field marshal. And in Germany we have a carnival every year and people dress up in various clothes and they have a good fun at the carnivals and lot of kids get conceived during carnival time. And they dressed me up as a field marshal little kids, little 4 year old dressed up as a field marshal everybody would come up to me and I heard a voice it is unmistakable, I heard it then, it is never left me and it said ‘no you are not a field marshal you are prince’. And I said ‘I am a prince’. A prince is one who knows and already has a kingdom who you can throw into the gutter... , you can say anything to and do anything to and he will never lose his royalty. He is a prince. And he is a son of his father. And I knew that from that time and it has never left me all the times in Germany and all the difficult times that this body has gone through in its life. It it always underneath has been this this absolute certainty that I was a child of GOD and that nothing could ever happen to me. And I would truly suggest to you to repossess your wisdom and know that you are a prince or princess so that you are royalty itself. You are the holy one; you are the one that has been chosen. You have been chosen because you are one with God. Whatever else you have ever thought and whatever littleness that you have assigned to yourself has been an arrogance on your part to keep yourself separate and that day is done. None of the disguises are going to work ever again. you are only going to trip up and trip up and trip up until get the lesson that none of that works You are not this body, you are not this mind that has allied itself with an ego, you are not in this world, you are an alien here, there is no place for you to rest here, go home because you are already home, just realizing.
Ted Henry: Baba says this is a dream, the course a miracle says this is an illusion, how are we to know what our home is, what is real?
Al Drucker: Trust in Swami. If Swami Calls, when Swami speaks, when He starts a discourse He doesn’t say ‘My dear merchants and housewives’, He calls you ‘Divya Atma Swaroopulara’, He calls you ‘Prema Swaroopulara,’ He says you are the very Embodiments of the divine love, of the divine Atma’ who are you going to believe? Your little experiences, your little mind, your little voice that tells you I am just a little insignificant one in the world that’s impacting on me or you are going to believe Swami. What good is Swami if you don’t believe Him? What good are His words if you don’t trust that He knows and He knows better than I know, I don’t know anything; of myself I am nothing, of my truth I am everything. That’s the key, trust. I mean the first thing of course is, you have to believe in Him. He says I will give you what you want so that you will want what I have to give you. What I have to give you is that, is the, is the glorious portal to your liberation and it is available to you and it is available so easily. All you have to do is say ‘Help, show me’, and He will show you. But you have to trust that what He shows you is true.
Ted Henry: A questioner wants to know Is consciousness all there is?
Al Drucker: ‘Pragnanam Brahma’ the great Mahavakyas, the great sayings of the Upanishads. ‘Aham Brahmasmi’, ‘Tat Tvam Asi’, ‘I am Ayamatma Braham’. One of those great saying is ‘Pragnanam Brahma’. Consciousness, awareness, the CIA is all there is, that is all there ever is. I spoke yesterday of a time when I left this body, I can’t even say ‘I left this body’ because there is no ‘I’ really in that consciousness it was just pure consciousness, and
that consciousness had in retrospect looking at it had the characteristics of the pure witness its called the ‘Sakshi’ in Sanskrit, pure witness just watching no investment of any kind and yet total awareness of all. That witness is the witness of these five sheets that is what is meant by ‘Tat-tvam-Asi, That–Thou-Art’. Ha, ‘Thou’- who you are, is that witness of all things. ‘That’ that ‘that That’ is the sachidananda is not the Nama and Roopa, the name and the form that covers it and veils it and hides it from our seeing. We see the names and forms and we think that it what has some power and reality. But none of this has any reality. God itself which is all that really.
Ted Henry: For those who have had fewer experiences that you had, you have been kicked in the pants by Baba many times in wonderful miraculous ways, life saving ways, yet they are still on a spiritual path and want to grow their path without experiences like yours, how do they do it?
Al Drucker: Everyone has experiences you couldn’t have made it to here. Every, every moment how many times have you driven down the highway? What about that truck that was heading for you? When the mind of that truck driver just got sleepy for a moment? Who saved you that moment? How many thousands of opportunities have there been where you have been saved and you’ve been held in the divine arms? Everything is a gift. Nothing can possibly happen to you that is not in your best interest. Nothing, all things are echo’s of the voice for God. That’s one of the lessons in the course of miracles, Swami’s course the miracles. Everything is a gift you have nothing to do but to be grateful. I mean language becomes very very simple it just becomes yes, yes, thanks, wow! That’s about all you ever need to continue on through life. You are not having to do anything you need do nothing it is all given to you it is given to you and it is being done through you. And so, yes I have been blessed with many experiences, but some experiences I haven’t spoken out such as, one instances being thrown out of the ashram hmmm ha. That’s an important experience, that’s one of the greatest blessings that’s ever happen to me. By far the greatest blessing that has ever happened to me in my limited consciousness. But at the time it was the total devastation. Everything is a gift, accept it all, don’t return to the weakness of feeling some guilt about what you have done. There is no guilt, there is no human being in truth, there is only God. I am not this body. I am one with my father. Just hold on to that idea. Face the light, put the shadow behind you. The shadow is not my business. It is the shadow of this body. That body itself is part of this shadow. That is not my business. My business is God.
Ted Henry: Al Drucker, you are 75 pushing 80 from where do you get your bondless passion for life and energy?
Al Drucker: Thanks you. that’s the sweet question all I can say is, I love you. Thank you Yes.
Ted Henry: When you came back into the body after your liver cancer death, one person wants to know, was the absence of suffering along with physical pain related to being free of the emotional body.
Al Drucker: No, no, the emotional body was very much present, but it was present, it it no longer governed me, it no longer directed what I, what I thought and was and and felt and abided in you might say and so the emotional body was very strong. And I’d get caught in for moments but golly, it lasts so little, you know, they say that it, its like writing in the sand on the odor, it doesn’t last very long. Whereas before it’s like writing in stone you know inscribed deep in the stone. Nothing last very long anymore, and I can absolutely trust that the return to wholeness will always come. ‘Om Purna madha, Purna midam, Purnaat Purnamudhachyate, Purnasya Purnamadaaya, Purnam-Eva’ that’s all there is, Eva, its all there is. It will always return and it will for you as well. In fact there is no difference.
Ted Henry: Do you have..
Al Drucker: I have to get go, I have to get off my high horse here ask me down low question.
Ted Henry: Do you have any words to assist people who are suffering from long term physical pain and I might add those who are also on the receiving end of prognoses that we all have they are aware of the fate that many of us are?
Al Drucker: When I was suffering form a pretty serious prognosis the suffering that I was suffering from when I went to Swami was the knowledge that at any moment night or day given, or I would say, no more than 15 minutes. Upwards of 5000 nuclear weapons might be in the air, any moment night or day it could happen with the computer glitch. There was actually no way to my knowledge as we know it at that time that we could prevent that. That’s a pretty serious prognosis and so what did Swami say to me, He said ‘Forget the world, the world is not your business Sir! This is just my world’. Don’t get caught up in it. It is your arrogance that gets caught up in it. It’s not your humility that gets caught up in it. It is a way, Death is an idea made up by the mind to maintain its separation. If you die and somebody else doesn’t die makes you different doesn’t it. If He dies and I don’t die it makes you different. Anything to fortify this long standing rut through 1000s of lives of being special, there is no special ness even Swami is not special. For forgive me for saying so. But there is nothing special anywhere all there is is exactly the same and that sameness is the pure love of God. That’s all there is. As I said the other day there are no objects anywheres nothing is an object including God you can’t speak of it as a He or She or an It. It is a verb. It is a river of love flowing out into more and more of itself and ever remaining itself. That is my nature, that is my truth, hold on to that and everything will be taking care of. This body will be used for what it will be used and when its time to set it aside, it is just a vehicle you came here in a vehicle you set it outside in the parking lot and you are here. You don’t have to be worried about that thing. Don’t be concerned about it, everything will be given including what is given to take care of these bodies. It is not about these bodies, it is about the doctor that needs to hear the message of love and that message may be a silent message of just your equanimity in the face of what might scare anyone else. Just go home in God and hold that hold on to that.
Ted Henry: My guess is this question written by somebody among us is something a lot us can relate to, Do you have any words of wisdom for those us recovering rescuers who do too much seva without discrimination and need to spend more time discovering Atma?
Al Drucker: Yes, Yes, I was, I changed my training from my engineering and physics background, I was part of small group of technical people in a secret organization that had the responsibility for all the ballistic missile programs in the US arsenal, including all the nuclear weapons. We were just very small group and we where constantly on the go. It was clear to me that that was not to be my life, so I shifted, and I shifted to become a hero. I studied medicine and I studied acupuncture and I studied number of different systems. And I was doing lot of treatment of people and I found myself getting more and more sick. And onetime I went to Swami, He said ‘you are too sensitive now, you stop doing treatments and you become a teacher, you teach.’ And so from that point on, I was doing teaching and many doctors came into our program this was an institute and others as well. And then one day in India a good friend who was a well known person at that time ‘Gregory Bateson’ some of you may heard of him. Bateson was the husband of the great anthropologists Margaret Mead and when she died he remarried and his new wife Louis became a Sai devotee and went off to India and left Gregory behind and Gregory didn’t like being left behind and so he would come along and he was an anthropologist and so he would study the natives in India. He would come to darshan and sit in this little stool in the back and do his naturalist thing and Swami loved him and came up to him many times and ‘How is the professor today and how is the professor doing’. Excuse me I will try to shorten the story. And one fine day Swami called him and a number of us in for an interview. And he was so excited because he couldn’t manage with all these devotees who just kept talking about God and singing their bhajans. And he, he was a serious type. You know he wanted to; his father was from Cambridge University in India. And he was an intellectual, he was a great intellectual and so he wanted to engage Swami in intellectual talk but something was meanings. He was part of the University of he was in the university of California and he was the part of the regions of the university. And the regions was responsible for all the nuclear weapons in the US arsenal. The regions had a yearly budget of 35 billion dollars. And he wanted to get out of that. And so he wanted to engage Swami and ask Him about how if Swami agreed and Swami wouldn’t have any of it He wouldn’t engage with when Swami called them in all Swami asked him in ‘how is your health Sir!’ and Gregory said ‘my health is very good Sir and how is yours!’
Ted Henry: hahaha...
Al Drucker: And then when Swami asked him some other silly questions, Gregory just left the interview room and said thank you very much and he came out sort of storming. He said you can’t hold a decent conversation with a holy man. And he...
Audience: hahaha... Al Drucker: And he took off for California where he had a regional meeting, New Year’s Day regions meeting.
And he left his wife and child there in India. Is it ok to tell a story?
Ted Henry: go ahead, go ahead...
Al Drucker: Haha.. Gregory got very sick on the flight to America. They took him off the plane and with an ambulance and took him to the university hospital in Berkeley and there they discovered when they did X-ray a huge Carcinoma on his aorta and there was almost no chance that they could save him. But they did an explore to his surgery and just opened up that that thoracic wall all the way up and they found that the cancer was actually on the aorta it was not even on the lung where they originally thought it might be and it was simply not operable and so they sewed him up and gave him 2 or 3 weeks to live and the word was send to his wife in India and she immediately came home. But now after Swami gave an interview to Gregory He called me in and He said ‘Do you know that old man that professor who was just here’ I said ‘yes Swami. I am a friend of the family’. I brought them to Swami. He said ‘That man is very sick he will die but Swami will save him. You go and nurse him. You nurse him.’ I said Swami you told me not to do treatments any more. ‘No it is alright you nurse him.’ And the short of it is I mean it is quiet a story but the short of it is, is it that I took on Gregory’s cancer and died instead of Gregory. Everyday I would go and see him. I brought him to our place at Essilon, Essilon institute, and there everyday, he almost died on the way there and in the most remarkable way he came back to life because we found a remedy and it was the homeopathic remedy and I would sit in the sands at that time, outside the Nilayam in India and I would study the rare and an unusual homeopathic remedies. There are some hundreds or so what like they call the bell we will forgotten I haven’t used all this for so long...
Al Drucker: No no no its there could get very important remedies and then there are some 2 or 3 thousands very rare remedies you can’t even find them in most homeopathic pharmacies. But I would study them. And I remember studying one of the remedies, I forgotten its name, it was a long Latin, they all are Latin names. It’s funny that I just don’t remember it at the moment. But its a very strange name and that remedy was the perfect remedy for Gregory. When he was transported up the coast to Essilon because he was about dead, he was almost dead he couldn’t keep anything down, he was vomiting a lot of blood and it looked like he was finished. And Ornithogalum Umbellatum, I remember that remedy a very rare remedy and I called every homeopathic pharmacy in the country, I called every homeopathic pharmacy in the country and then I called homeopathic pharmacies in Germany and in England. And nobody had Ornithogalum Umbellatum. One of them said that they can make it ready but it would take about 10 days, and Gregory had hours literally to live. And I had a friend who was an herbalist and he became a very famous herbalist. And I said Michael, Michael Tierra, I said Michael do you have any idea if Ornithogalum Umbellatum is an herb? He said of course it’s the Star Bethlehem its all over the mountains out here and this is the time, this is the time when it’s in bloom. It’s perfect. He said lets go and get some and we got some star Bethlehem, little tiny flower, beautiful plant. He says this is Ornithogalum Umbellatum. And sure enough we made the homeopathic remedy and gave it to Gregory and it was miraculous. I mean you understand it was Swami.
Al Drucker: It was Swami. And like that everyday would do something with him and I got sicker and sicker and sicker and this body lost 40 pounds and went off to a cancer place in Mexico to learn a particular therapy the Gerson therapy and came home and died.
Ted Henry: Jeez.... Al Drucker: And I was out of my body and I gave you that little story. And then came back in and I knew it was
all finished and all I wanted to do is to go see Swami. Swami said cancer cancelled.
Ted Henry: Hahaha...
Al Drucker: And Gregory lived on for 4 years, had his most important work. He just totally changed from a ... the Englishman to a beautiful, lovely, full spirited human being who loved everyone. He never admitted to loving God but you clearly saw God everywhere and he was beautiful and when he finally, when it was finally time to go it turned out that the cancer they took another x-ray in the hospital and you could have laid one x- ray on top of the other the cancer had literally been canceled, there was no cancer. He died of some medicines that were given to him that were too strong. But it was time for him to go. And there were devotees surround him singing bhajans to him and it was just a beautiful finish for him he was done with that body He was in his 80’s and he was done.
Ted Henry: Your spontaneous reactions to two words.. Al Drucker: forgive me for these long talks and the answers.
Ted Henry: your spontaneous reactions to two words fear and anger. Al Drucker: Love Ted Henry: Do you get angry? Al Drucker: hmm...damn right Audiences: Hahaaha... Al Drucker: I get totally Ted Henry: Go ahead
Al Drucker: pissed Hahaa.. and it lasts for about 30 secs. Hahaha.. Ted Henry: here somebody who is totally peeved, so we leave here today and go back to our normal job..
Al Drucker: Wait let me say something though really you know Swami said the course of miracles is His work. He said this is my highest work; this is the Vedanta for the west He is given that in signed it a number of times. And in the course it makes it very clear that is always only Love or Fear and that Fear is what covers Love and Fear is nonexistent. It is something we make up in order to keep ourselves separate and so if you want to experience the truth, if you want to experience the Love and this is not the Love that is Love for our our own. It is the unlimited, unconditional, ever expanding love of God. That is our truth. If you want to experience that, go into the heart of the Fear. You got to don’t avoid it, don’t avoid these negative feelings but go right into them stand in them a moment. Don’t, ‘you can invite them in but you don’t have to serve them coffee’ Swami said.
Ted Henry and Audience: Hahaha..
Al Drucker: But do let them in for a moment and just stand still in that and you will be shown that even the thickest fog cant even hold a button. It can’t even hold a little paper airplane. You understand that all there is, is Love, is the Love of the God and we have constructed these artificial clouds and coverings on top of them. Go right into them. Don’t avoid them, go into them and you’ll discover what they hide and what they hide is the only truth there is.
Ted Henry: There might be variations of this question that a lot us can relate to, so here we leave today and go back to our normal jobs now which are very spiritually and financially unrewarding how do we, how can we really do all that when it, the people, the environment all that is so negative?
Al Drucker: It’s negative because you want it that way. Yes you want it that way. You choose to be the victim so that you can see the victimizer outside of you and thereby maintain your separation. There is nothing unrewarding, there is nothing dark out there, except in your mind. There is nothing out there except in your mind. Your mind is all of it. Nothing is going on. Everything, everyone, that you picture, is in heaven. You are the only one still flailing around not having gotten the word that you too are already in heaven, home in God as God. So change your mind, change your mind about what is. It is the seen that you see which reflects the wish that you wish, which is to be separate from God because of your fear of the love of God. You are afraid you are going to disappear in it. Disappear in it. Become it. It is you. Don’t be afraid of it. There is nothing going on here except your dream. You are the dreamer of this dream and it is a dream of separation, which you have concocted and it is no longer true and you will no longer get away with it. None of the disguises will work from this point on. It is only going to be pain and suffering until you realize that it is my pain, my suffering that I am, its a battle that I have in my own mind against myself and stop it. What for, what for when Swami is here showing you that there is another way. Love, just Love, Jesus showed us the way too. If they want your cloak give them your underclak as well give Him everything. Just always give love. Your savior is standing outside of you asking to save you. That savior is who? I told the story of the, what was it the other day, of the, of the sweeper. I told the story of the sweeper right. Your sweeper is your savior the one who is rejecting you is God, showing you that there is something deeper than that which is only Love. Just Love, just Love, don’t look for opportunities not to love. Don’t look for excuses you go into doing your work and there nobody seems to have the high minded belief system that you have and so you feel like you are in some foreign land you are not at home. You’re at home you are at home in God. Bring that love. You don’t have to start using words of Sai or the words of Vedanta or any of the grandeur spots. Just bring your smile bring your love and feel it. I mean actually feel it because you have Swami. What a gift. What an incredible gift is being given. You are in a dream of awakening and its just minutes, may be even just seconds from midnight. Its all going to be over very quickly there is nothing here for you, nothing here at all, there is nothing of any value here at all and yet when that change gets made in you mind what you are going to discover that everything here is God That there is only God.
Ted Henry: A related question you just said so change your mind. Al Drucker: Yeah..
Ted Henry: Baba has said repeatedly we have about as much free will as an Ass, tied to an hitching post, how on earth we change our mind if we don’t have free will?
Al Drucker: Hahaha.. little bit of free will hahaa... you have no free will at all. None, but it seems like you do. I’m going to give you an answer, but just hold hold the moment..
Ted Henry: hmmm
Al Drucker: See, so, the Mahabharata war is about to start tomorrow and today on the field of battle are arrayed all the armies, the armies on the sides of Pandavas, the sides of good, the sides of Dharma and the army on the sides of Adharma. ‘Krishna, you’ve chosen to become my charioteer take me out between the armies and let me see how we have to order our battle to tomorrow’ Arjuna says and Krishna takes him and He takes him to close to the other army where Arjuna can see his beloved grandfather Bhishma, who he loves more than any other. His father Pandu left when the Pandavas where just small children and they where brought up by their grandfather Bhishma, and there is Bhishma on the other side. He had to kill Bhishma. He also knew that Bhishma couldn’t be killed. He had a boon from God that he could never be killed. And yet He was such a powerful generalissimo that in charge of the army on the other side that there was no way this side could ever win the Arjuna’s side, the side of righteousness could ever win. And there He saw Bhishma his beloved grandfather on the other side. He had to fight him, he had to try to kill him, he probably would get killed by him. Then he saw Drona, his beloved teacher, his guru the one who thought him everything on the other side. And then he saw not only all his cousins, his hundred cousins the Kauravas, but also many beloved friends on the other side. And he threw down his bow and he said ‘I cannot fight’, and then he turned to Krishna who was his friend his bosom buddy. They have been together for 70 years always together, they were actually Krishna’s sister was Arjuna’s wife. They where brothers-in-law’s and he turns to Krishna and he says for the first time in all these years he says ‘Lord’, ‘Lord’ not buddy, he says ‘Lord I don’t know what I’m doing please show me’. Total surrender to one who is higher, who knows and then Krishna gives him the Bhagavad-Gita. Gita there on the battle field that tomorrow will create so much carnage that by the end of the war which lasted for eighteen days, millions and millions of the cream of Indian manhood would be dead, only seven or eight survived the five Pandavas and three others survived out of these millions that where going to be in combat and Krishna gave him the Bhagavad-Gita and at the end of the Gita the next to the last sloka of the Gita, 700 versus, and then the at the end of that He gives him this verse He says ‘Now I have given you my highest teachings, I have given you all my wisdom, I have given you the mysteries, now think it over and do, think it over and do as you wish. In other words free will, yes! free will no’.
Ted Henry: 10 minutes left try to get as many of the questions that people will ask.
Al Drucker: Ok. Hahaha..
Ted Henry: this is one of my favorite here, why do Sai followers often experience lack of money?
Al Drucker and Audience: Hahahaha.....
Al Drucker: Next question please... hahaha
Ted Henry: with related would you comment on boredom and depression, is it required to know happiness and bliss?
Al Drucker: Boredom and depression is it required? Well I just told the story of how Arjuna was dejected, depressed. I don’t think he was bored that’s a little different kind of a feeling. But he was hopeless. He was a great he was a great generalissimo, he was a great fighter, he had prepared for this. Swami said they where both in their 80’s at that time. They lived much longer. And He and Krishna had been together for some 70, odd years and He was a great warrior. And he knew how to be in the world. He was also a great prince of a mighty kingdom. I’m sorry, I lost my train give me the question again oh depression?
Ted Henry: Yeah
Al Drucker: But here he felt depressed. This is a spiritual depression that I’m in. I don’t know what to do? I don’t know what my Dharma? What is the right thing to do? Is it to kill all these these beloved grandfathers and cousins and family? Is that what I’m supposed to do? Is that the right thing to do? I can throw down my bow. I’m helpless. I’m I supposed to make widows? Is that what I’m supposed to do? It’s a difficult question you can feel the the anguish that is in that and the first thing Krishna says to him He says ‘You are not a body, you are the Atma, you were never born, you will never die’. In an interview that Swami gave to the westerners myself and Kodaikanal the very first time I went to Kodai. It was a remarkable experience for me because I was told to remain at Prashanti Nilayam at that time and some how in a most remarkable way I was transported there. Its a long story, I wont tell right now. But there He called about 70 devotees 70,80 perhaps 100 devotees that moment and of those about 45 or 50 were westerns who some how got the word all like myself in a most remarkable way and we came together and Swami gave an interview to us and He said ‘you were never born, you are the Atma, not these bodies, don’t think of yourself this way’ This was the first thing that Krishna said to Arjuna. So as long as we still hold on to this identities that we have nurtured for so long in many ways ..... MAYA idea MAYA that ...... but nevertheless with that. An Ego between God as long as that phase from seconds to the midnight in home this is in your awakening state Go of all these deeply wedded ideas past and that’s going to be a little difficult because the hold on to us and so we become illused and we don’t know what to do and we become depressed and we become anxious and we become like Arjuna that moment prepared for often. Krishna said you will fight despite yourself. It is already in your nature, you are pure soul and you have come to support and and protect the Dharma. It is the time to change from materialism and and ignorance the truth and you are the one that I have chose. And so Krishna gave Him Gita. He will Gita to all of us. Itself will bring on that Gita. Now that doesn’t mean you have to be depressed. It means that we are still holding on and the blessed Lord is not going to let us hold on very long. And so He will come and all you have to do is to say ‘Help’ which is what Arjuna did. He said Help and whatever follows will be the direction from the Lord because our minds are all powerful like nothing can resist these minds. Your mind let me just say it, your mind is all powerful. Your mind is the mind of God. You have chosen to identify yourself with something small. But that doesn’t change your mind. Your mind is still the divine mind. It is all powerful and all you have to say is ‘Help’ and your very own mind that part of your mind that is not become confused will arrange for you to get your own Gita. Gita is the song of God. Is the song of liberation!
Ted Henry: One final question Al Drucker: Yes
Ted Henry: You raised the subject of the course of Miracles, Baba has said that He is the author of the course of Miracles, you said the course of Miracles is not for everybody, why?
Al Drucker: Let it be directed to you personally, Ask Swami you have your way of asking, ask, ask and see if its right for you. I was directed towards it. I have to tell you like the Course of Miracles was first channeled channeled is probably not the right word, it was more dictated it was dictated to a psychologist psychiatrist at Columbia University at Presbyterian hospital in in New York, Helen Schucman, because she was having such troubles in her work and she was a pure soul if you read little bit of her life and she just suddenly got this voice that said get your pen and start taking dictation and she took this dictation. When it was, there was some 30 odd chapters dictated as part of a text and then there where 365 lessons, lesson for everyday of the year that was dictated following that and then there was another little book called the manual for teachers saying that you are all teachers, you are all teachers of God, you are all teachers of Love, teach only Love, and that was also dictated and those have been put together and has become the Course of Miracles. When the first 10 chapters had been dictated, the first 10 chapters of all the rest that I just mentioned, a psychiatrist whose name was Laura Perls who was the good friend of Helen’s (Helen Schucman who took the dictation) was given the first type written manuscript of those first 10 lessons, 10 chapters of the text and Laura who was separated from her husband Fritz Perls a great psychiatrist who at that time had had number of heart attacks and come to and was at Essilon at the institute where I was living and teaching on the West coast and who had been miraculously saved by Ida Rolf, who was invited to come there and who then developed a Rolfing. All this is part of my history and I was Fritz Perls assistant and I was living there at Essilon and I was just helping this old man out in everyway that he to get him to help him do his life’s work which was Gestalt Therapy which has become the principle method of clinical psychology today and Laura his wife came, also a psychiatrist came to visit from New York and she bought with her the MS of the first 10 chapters of the Course in Miracles. So 10, the first 10 chapters of the Course of Miracles, Laura Pearls, gives it to her husband Fritz Pearls whom she visits once a year, and Fritz takes a look at it and he says ‘Jesus Jesus Jesus Jesus Jesus. what I want was Jesus’ and he just throws the thing to me. And he says ‘here is this Miracle thing’. Hahahaha, and I look at this and I say ‘Jesus Jesus Jesus’ and what’s a nice Jewish boy like me. Hahahaha... and I put it aside.
Ted Henry: Hahaha....
Al Drucker: And 30 odd years later it comes back to me we have a somebody showing a video and it was some great spiritual light, I think it was Babaji and they mixed up the cases and in the case out comes Kennth Wapnik talking about the Course of Miracles. And so I watched this video of the Course of Miracles and something in me just talks to me and says ‘this is your next bus stop’. Hahahaa...and so its come to me. So if it comes to you ask, ask if its right for you. What is missing for me in the course although it is very much there, but it doesn’t have the sweetness of the heart. It isn’t quite, it assumes that you’ve gone through, that you are at the stage, that I mentioned yesterday that is a sort of three steps, ‘there is the Karma Yoga, there is the Bhakti Yoga, and there is the Jnana Yoga’. Swami spoke to all three of those in the Sai Baba Gita. It goes straight; it is a narrow path straight up a mountain to the ultimate recognition of who we are to the Jnana Yoga, that union was truth was the wisdom of who I am as one with God, and for some of us who like to taste the sugar it might not quite be the path as yet. So ask and it will be shown you.
Ted Henry: I’m told we have little more time couple more questions on the list here that people have submitted, how is that I cannot stay in contact with Sai Baba now like before?
Al Drucker: I can’t stay in contact with Sai Baba now as before. Before, I made some 30, 35 trips to Swami. Sometimes 2 usually 3 times a year after doing my workshop I had a workshop at Essilon I would do that workshop and go off to India. I had 3 months free in between generally, between the 3 months workshop and I just want to go off to India. I made all those many trips. One day Swami told me now you come. It was, He sent a really tough cookie to me. This man was in his late 60’s he had just retired from Harvard Medical School. He had been head of a department of Internal medicine at Harvard Medical School and God knows why that man would come to Essilon Institute and take my, that time 3 months workshop on alternative systems of healing. The workshop taught many different systems of healing including Homeopathy and the Rolfing and herbal medicine and Yoga medicine and different things that were of interest to those who had that kind of a mind. And this man just gave me just gave me a continuous hard time and so in between in the middle of our 3 months program at easter time no no past easter time it was already end of may. I went; I took a few days off and went to Swami and Swami called me right in He said ‘that old man is giving you such a hard time’. I said ‘Yes Swami’. He says ‘why do you need this, come be with me and you will be free. You don’t need money, you don’t need marriage, you don’t need fame, all of those will give you pain’. Marriage, Money, hahaha.. excuse me, Marriage, Money, Fame equals pain. Come be with me and you will be free. I said, Yes Swami I’ll come. It will take a year or two to sort of close of my, my program at Essilon and to I had some land up there Big Sur to sell that and to take care of things. He said no no not like that you come back for Guru Purnima. Guru Purnima at the time was in the middle end of June some time it start at the end of June, this was the end of May it was little bit more than 3 weeks away. He said Go home close everything up, you don’t need to do anything more in America. America finished. You come and be with Me. And so I had no choice really. And I went and lived there and came and, and in the most remarkable way everything was taking care of. Somebody, it was a piece of land that was very difficult to develop because of some legal situation and I didn’t see how I could get, how I could let go of it, you know sell it. And in most remarkable way everything got taken care of. Somebody came and said I want I want and I said this going to be problems I don’t care what it is I will pay you what ever here. Like that everything so the only thing that still keeping me is that I had some old parents my mother that time was 91 and my father was 94 and they where kind of dependent on me. My father was, because on two occasions he had been in the ICU in the hospital he was, he had heart attacks and in both cases he was fading fast and in one of those cases his heart actually stopped. And I, they where in Los Angeles at that time in a hospital and I was up in Big Sur and I drove as fast as I could down to Los Angeles and Swami showed me and showed me that there was a homeopathic remedy that was going to save that man. And I couldn’t get it into him. You know he had this mask and this oxygen on his face and it was all wired up and the only thing and I saw the remedy. There was something very unusual of what He wanted that he never in his whole life ever care about and that spoke to me of that remedy and spoke to me of fast versa. I mean the details are not important. You know I’m trained as a Homeopathy. And I could see a remedy. I just ran out to the car to get the remedy. By the time I got back, his pulse was was flat. And I just had to get it into him somehow, and I just rubbed it on his wrist and I rubbed it on his wrist and you could see "ta-dum, ta-dum", and then the heart came up and he came back to life like it was Swami! I mean I just had like this intuition and was just given to me and then it happened again at a later time and again he came back to. So I just, he became very dependent on me that I would sort of keep him alive. And so now I’m given these 3 weeks to come back to, come back for Guru Purnima to India, and Swami said ‘All of America is finished for you’ you won’t have to do anymore and live back by my old parents. And so on the day that I was to pick up my ticket it was Friday night where as you know by now with Jewish background and my father would go to the temple and he went to the temple and he came home Friday night he comes home to the Sabbath meal and he has his meal and he sits down on his chair and he just goes to sleep and he breaths his last and my mother calls me and she says son your father has departed! It is alright! I am fine. It was beautiful and come and there is in the Jewish tradition Jews it is called sitting Shiva Shiva. You know, you come and and be with him, be with with us and then go off to India. It is fine. I will be fine and everything that taken care of in those three and a half weeks and including a huge amount of money that suddenly came to me and I have no idea where it came from and it was said that there was an account in some savings and loan association in in Redlands, Redlands somewhere in California some town that I had never been in that it was in my name and they found me through the drivers license and they sent me all this money. And the first thing I did with this check is that when I got to Swami I put it on His chair, Its your money its not mine. That’s how I happened to get this incredible place on top of the round building you know
Ted Henry: Oh! Al Drucker: On top of the, what do you call it, a penthouse suite you know I mean I didn’t do anything. It was just all given to me. I forget what let me into this long story what was the question... Ted Henry: Does anybody remember? Audience: Sai devotees always poor? Ted Henry: Sai devotes why they where always poor?
Al Drucker: No no that wasn’t the question.. Audience: here an answer what would be Audience : ...separate from Swami at this point .... Ted Henry: Yes why some..
Al Drucker: No no the question was, does it change, does your relation to Swami change, isn’t it what was the question?
Ted Henry and Audience: Yes Yeah.
Al Drucker: And so for years following that I was at Prashanti Nilayam and I was given a duty to do and it was to talk to westerns when they came. I mean I would give the in those early days was Kasturi, Kasturi’s Son and Myself would give the daily talks and then I mean I had no idea how to do that I was just a shy little refugee boy, who came from a Germany just before the war we were saved and I was just a shy kid and but Swami said you do it and its given to do. And then I was teaching at the university and I was given all these tasks to do, to do the study circle for both the professors and also for the students. I mean I was busy all the time and then Swami called on me lots and lots of time I mean people send me pictures of me and Swami because Swami would always talk to me. Everyday He talked to me, everyday, there was no I don’t think there was a day that was skipped when He wouldn’t say something to me. And then one day it all changed and it changed.
Ted Henry: Why do we lost him?
Al Drucker: are we still on
Ted Henry: Yeah
Al Drucker: He just didn’t talk to me, He didn’t come by and that went on and on and on and it was a whole year and at the end of the year He still hadn’t talked to me and that’s when when I got sick and I was in the hospital and then Swami sent word that I had to leave the hospital and I had to go back to America to get treatment.
Ted Henry: Hmmm.
Al Drucker: He sent for one of my students at Essilon. This fellow normally he lived in Canada and he would normally come, he would come during the cold of the Canadian winter he would come in Feb. but this was Dasara time so this was October and Swami came to him that night and said ‘You go and collect Drucker’ and so he came and he was there for one darshan and Swami said ‘He is in the hospital go and get him’ and and Ariyas his name is, came and took me home. And as I, I was just sort of carried on board the airplane and I was sor4t of crumpled into the seat along the window, barely alive and the plane was flying out of Delhi, flying east, flying across India, and just as we pass the coast line, sortt of rather my sleep eyes, I sort of look down and I see the coast line of India and suddenly all this Shakti just sort of comes into me and I just bolt upright and just shake myself as I have seen Swami do, you know when He is like, I described this other story, I mean it literally happened to me and the whole thing just fell of me and I was just good as gold and and all that illness whatever it was was finished. And so my years in India where done. I tried coming back two times and both times I had major adventures it was clear, I mean I wouldn’t listen to my own inner source that said, this is done for you and so I needed to come in again and Swami ignored me but gave me a very hard time in many different ways and then the third time I came, I was in the ashram for about 30 secs hmm 30 mins and volunteer came up to me and said you have to leave Sir, you have to be outside and I was outside with the dogs at the gate
Ted Henry: Hmmm
Al Drucker: And I was thrown out of the ashram. Because, it was time for next phase, the next part of the adventure, and I was devastated because I was holding on to some ideas and I had no idea what I had done why am I being thrown out? it made no sense to me. Now I see it as the greatest gift that was ever given to me. I could not have come into the true gift that has been given to me to come into this place within myself. Had I remained there at least as I see it now. I mean Swami is totally internalized. I don’t know the difference between me and Swami. I can say that directly I don’t know the difference. I know who I am and I am Swami. I am not that Swami that you know, now you go out and give darshan, its not that. Swami said to me ‘He said this body is an ordinary body’ He spoke of Himself of His body ‘He said this is an ordinary body, but this body has come on a holy mission, on a great mission and so it will be used for that’. You can say that and everyone here can say that I can say that it has been given to me to say but its been to given to me to pass that on to you also. That is your story. This body is been given to me. It’s a vehicle the same vehicle that you left out there in the parking lot so that you can go now and do your work and that work is to bring the love of God and light of God into those that still think that they are limited and and caught up in this non-existing world. There is no world here except in your mind and it’s a mind that is totally caught up in its own importance, in its own arrogance. True humility will see that I am God itself. I am no different from God. And that’s what God what Swami said, He said ‘this avatar does not give you mantra’. But I will give you a mantra and I want you to say it three times a day ‘I am God, I am God I am no different from God.’ I am the Satchidananda swaroopa, I am Tatsat, I am all of it, I am peace, I am love, I am pure delight. Own it. Be it. Dust if you are dust think, Dust if you think Dust you are. God if you think God you are. Why do would you continue to think the arrogance of thinking that you are small? when the truth is that you are all of it. Think God. Be God!
Ted Henry: Al Drucker you are our Sai Brother. Thank You. Al Henry: Thank you Ted Henry: Sai Ram!
Al Drucker: I tell you the one who is listening most carefully to all of this is me. Let me take another quick second and just say something Swami tells a story of a guru who has a particular pooja that he does everyday and for that pooja he needs fresh coconut milk everyday and he has a shishya, he has a woman who is his student, who is his disciple and she lives on the other side of the river and she, there, there are coconut palms there are no coconut palms on this side of the river and so everyday she brings in fresh coconut milk for his pooja. And one day she doesn’t show up for his morning pooja and she doesn’t come until late in the afternoon. And he is really deeply troubled because he was not able to do his daily pooja and he says why didn’t you come? what happened? And she said ‘Swami didn’t you look outside? the river is in spate. it is flooded. I couldn’t walk across the river as I do everyday I had to go down river and find the ferry man and even the ferry man was unwilling to take me and I had to convince him and he took me across the river and I had to come up here and it took lot of time’ and he said to her, ‘if you believed in God, if you believed in the truth of what I am teaching you would have just said Gopala, Govinda, Krishna, and you would have walked across the water’. There is no reason for you not to bring me my pooja articles everyday because you are my shishya and this is the means for your awakening and from that day on everyday the coconut milk came at the right time. He did his poojas and there was much happiness in that shrine room when they did their poojas together and one day the Guru had little doubt he said how did she do that because the river has been flooded many times and so he said alright let me try it and he went out and started saying Gopala, Govinda, Krishna and he hiked up his dhoti and he stepped into the water thinking he would be walk on top of the water and he just fell right in. He hiked up his dhoti!
Ted Henry: Hahaha
Al Drucker: He had so much trust that He hiked up his dhoti right! and of course he fell in. So Swami tells that story He says ‘that guru was teaching truth, and the one who heard, heard that truth in her pure heart, in her pure mind she was given the truth and she was free. That guru did not trust his own words, but that doesn’t means that his words where not true. He passed on the truth to her and she became free’. I say that because I am also listening to words that come through as do all of you when you come into the position of teaching. These are not my words. These are words that are given and I am as as interested an observer and and student of these words as anyone. We are all saviors to each other. We cannot do it alone. We cannot even do it with Swami. We need each other. We need our brother in the sense of brother which is not, doesn’t speak of male or female as the course speaks of it. Our brother is our savior, our sweeper is our true savior and so listen to your own words sometimes coming back through your brother. That’s whats going to set you free. Thank you very much. Sai Ram!
Ted Henry: Sai Ram!