JEGATHESAN - 2004 -GRANTS PASS, OREGON

Written by Ted Henry and Jody Cleary on . Posted in Transcriptions

~~ SOULJOURNS TRANSCRIPTIONS ~~

(What follows is lengthy, the unedited interview with Sai devotee, JEGATHESAN ( from 2003 in Grants Pass, Oregon) Our purpose is to transcribe and publish all Souljourns interviews as a matter of record. Your feedback is welcome. )

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~~~~~~~~~~ LOVE ALL ~ SERVE ALL ~~~~~~~~~~Bhagawan-2

JEGATHESAN Introduction: While devoted to holy man Sri Sathya Sai Baba, Jegathesan of Kuala Lumpur Malaysia has suffered enormous tragedies. First the loss of his wife and then the loss of his son. Here Jegathesan finds spiritual perspective for his life. Welcome to Souljourns. This interview was recorded in Grants Pass Oregon in July 2004.

Ted Henry: Jega, thank you very much for making yourself available on a very short notice and if I may be so bold I would like to ask you right at the top to recount some of your own personal experiences of the last several years of the last several months of tremendous personal loss in the shadow of Sai Baba and how you have found your way through the darkness.

Jegathesan: I think as I mentioned earlier today, you know I came from a background of born in a Hindu family but became an atheist very early in life, an agnostic, thinking that God is imagination, religion is just I mean opium for the people and until when Baba came in my life, I was a strong anti Sai Baba and a miracle happened you know.

Then I realized you know, Eh, look, there is a force beyond science and this force is a force you can reach out too and will respond. It is then I went into Baba’s teachings and then I realized what Baba’s message is for the whole world. He said there is only one God for all mankind you call him by different names, number two follow your religion, he says a Christian must become a better Christian, Hindu must become better Hindu, Buddhist a better Buddhist. Number three he says, respect and revere all religions because all religions come from the same one God. All ask you to do the same thing. Number four he says follow values in Life, follow values in your own life and try to promote this in society where values are now rapidly declining and number five do service for society, selflessly.

This is the essence of his teachings. Five drops of the ocean I call it. In my own life therefore since I became involved with Swami by the age of 32 now I am 60, so you can see I have gone long way. We have, I have tried to implement this you know and in Malaysia for example which is an Islamic nation and lot of restrictions are there you know in terms of lot of things. But in Malaysia you know is a beautiful country with lot interracial harmony, inter religious harmony.

Today if you go to Malaysia and ask who is, which people are involved in Human value programs, Sai Baba automatically and if you ask who is in the forefront of interfaith, inter religious harmony, Sai Baba it is because so as Christ said no, because of your work you will be known. So today I mean in the government circles in Malaysia, in the religious circles in Malaysia, we are recognized and respected okay for what we have done basically because the Christ message, ‘By your work you will be known, not by the talk you know. We can claim Baba to be anything Avatar, God, holy man but who cares unless they see that the rest of the world may see that because of this particular personality in this world, the world must benefit, we must benefit and we must show the world that we have transformed. The greatest message Baba has given in my life is the, not the miracles and all that Baba has done so much you know in Malaysia, Roundabout you know in Malaysia Holy ash pouring from pictures, you see materializations taking place far out of Baba’s physical presence, but the greatest miracle is the transformation of man. To transform very selfish individuals, to become caring for the community, for the people they are with. So like this my greatest challenges in my life have been to implement action programs, agenda of action in Malaysia and whenever whoever want to listen okay, so before I come to my personal, what am I getting at is this my experience is this you know the fact that Malaysia is a Muslim country we were able to break through many of the restrictions and suspicions of people by simply selfless service. We went down and served and served and served and finally the very people who were very suspicious as to why are you doing this begin to say okay, I mean they are doing very good work and helping everybody and they are not having any personal agenda that was the whole question of selfless service again.Bhagawan-6

You see today when I look around the world and I see many many service going on by many Sai organizations and I find ask myself what’s happening what are we doing now you know and we do you know, soup kitchens and sandwiches and you know I said look thousand other NGOs are doing the same thing and how come we are doing the same thing. You mean the other s are doing the same thing without an avatar or Godman telling them to do, we need a God man to come and tell us to do the same thing others are doing we must be doing something else. What is the meaning why does he, why has he come? If you believe he is an avatar or divine incarnation why has he come and then I realized that two things now in the world today that governments are unable to handle that religious leaders are unable to handle What is it?

The need to joint intervention, there is decline in values, there is profusely decline in values and you see the everyday newspapers screaming at us whats happening you know, Promiscuity, youth misbehavior, drugs and sexuality and this and that. People are unable to handle this and long before all this became major problem in the world Baba has already talked about the human value program. He says we must so in Malaysia we have launched a massive pervasive value program in the society you know in a very fun way you know. You see the youth, we cannot tell the youth you know, ‘You must behave yourself or you will go to hell’, they will say, ‘Ah… after all hell is full of adults so why to worry?’ We must therefore make values fun for the youth okay and exciting for the youth. That’s what we did in Malaysia we made values, we had human value drama festivals, human value song festivals. We made values a fun thing for the youth. The other great challenge is, people weren’t aware of this until September eleventh okay, 9/11. We found for the first time in human civilization religions are staring at each other across oceans you know with hostility and fear and can you imagine. Imagine you are god okay and you are sitting there in heaven or wherever and you have sent great god men, incarnations and holy men and you have come yourself and sent your son or whatever it is to create so many religions, for what to create peace and harmony and suddenly you find the very religions that you have sent, you have created through your Messiah’s or whatever it is, is a cause of the greatest problem and fear in world today. So if you are God what would you do? ‘Eh, I better come down and stop this myself okay?’ and So Swami has manifested here and he don’t forget after September 11th many many groups got together, interfaith dialogues you know just to as a reaction to a crisis. But here we at the Sathya Sai Organization is already an interfaith organization set up there by Swami to create interfaith unity and Swami says ‘Unity is Divinity’ so, we in Malaysia have launched massive interfaith programs. So we today we have got something called as ‘Friendship group for Inter religious service, we have got the Catholic church with us, we have got the Muslims with us, we have got the Buddhists, the Hindus, the Sikhs and the Council of churches representing the protestant groups. All together doing service and we are leading the program and they are prepared, they are happy to accept our leadership because there is no ……….agenda you know. Last year we launched two major, one medical camp, interfaith, it is called a Friendship with Inter religious medical camp so that …..many people do medical camps, Malaysian Sai Group itself we have done about 80 or 90m medical camps in Malaysia but it is no more a medical camp per se. It is a medical camp, the purpose of this is to create inter religious harmony. All the …the Christians will send Doctors, the Muslims….you know, then we had a day for the handicapped children. There were about 400 handicapped and all religions got together. This year in 04 we are organizing two medical camps in different different states of Malaysia, and one for the first time we are organizing an interfaith human values song and drama festival. Each religious group will present the human value drama so like this… for me this has been a very exciting in a country like Malaysia, Islamic nation for us to be able to do this, now, How? Though there are many restrictions in Malaysia how we should interact because it is Muslim country, always I find listen if I think I am doing this we will fail. But I am an instrument you know Swami, its your mission, I am an instrument Use me. Then we go and do you know and all the opposition from governments and all begin to fall. People begin to see our sincerity you know. They just do and do and do and today we have a fantastic situation. For me this has been a great source of inspiration and am happy to share this. So the same program the interfaith one I took it to Fiji and at Fiji now we have launched a massive, the Fiji group and I we had an inter faith seminar there and I challenged all the religious leaders, ‘We will not be able to pray inside this hall prayer but outside in God’ shall you know we can hold hands and serve’, everyone agreed and the Prime Minister of Fiji came for the function, You won’t believe this. You must get this thing, I can send to you by e mail, Venkataraman must have this that the Prime Minister of Fiji in Parliament in a major policy speech mentioned, I think it’s the first time ever in any parliament in the world he said, ‘The Sathya Sai Organization, what they are doing here is more valuable than all the words spoken by us in this house’, Ted Henry: That’s, that’s unbelievable… Jegathesan: Spoken by the Prime minister of Fiji, a Christian Prime minister of Fiji and recently we had launched this thing and so, it is simple by selflessly doing work only we can manifest the mission of why Baba has manifested. Ted Henry: Baba’s programs have helped countries in crisis; Baba’s programs have helped people in crisis. How has his guidance helped you in crisis? Jegathesan: Alright. For me you see the…firstly of course you know many people in this world live a life mono dimensional life you know. I tell people one day I was giving a talk I said, ‘What’s the difference between me and my dog?’ Born, born, eat eat sleep, sleep, mate, mate work work, die, die. That’s it. We both do the same thing you know. Then I told you know, oh no, I wear clothes’ but darn the Americans you know put clothes on dogs you know so now even dogs have clothes. Whats the difference? Us and the animal. We have a capacity to care for others beyond our own realm, so for me this joy he has given me, incredible love around the world, selfless people doing, for me this is the main satisfaction and I find there is a saying that Baba has said very interesting here, it is in all religions also but in Hinduism there is something called, ‘Nishkama karma’ that means selfless service and there is some word called Yogakshema that means ‘You dedicate yourself to me and I will look after you’, very interesting.Bhagawan-22

Ted Henry: No matter what the test.

Jegathesan: Right. This is a very interesting thing now. Therefore in my own life I have found incredible success in my work career and I have spent lot of my free time in lot of social work. Yet my career wise it’s been fantastic and many of the people in Malaysia have experienced this okay but this does not mean that we don’t face personal challenges in life. I tell people, listen, ‘Don’t think that just because you are praying to God or you are doing service, you are spared you know from the tragedies of life, look at Christ, are you greater than Christ? Christ suffered, look at how he suffered, my God you know, look at what happened to Buddha, what happened to Rama Krishna Paramahansa. Every great saint or Holy man you know went through, look at Gandhi, what happened to him? But what is the lesson learnt from them is that come what the concept of your will be done not mine, this is the great thing you knw. The greatest lesson spirituality teaches us every religion is You cannot stop the hurricane of life you know, because we created it by last karma, we do something negative and we are caught in an hurricane and its going round and round and we are saying, ‘God, God please stop this hurricane, stop this hurricane’, and God would reply, ‘My son, why should I, you created it, you create your own life why should he? You created it you know, I can’t tell why should I pray to you, Why should I do all this, why should I follow your teachings My son why, because he teaches you to stand in the eye of the hurricane. This is the greatest challenge. Only thing Baba said is, ‘The measure of my devotee is success or failure, victory or defeat, happiness or joy, remain unattached’. In my personal life I have gone through incredible tragedies, lot of success, lot of happiness, 1996 we were at Baba in Puttaparthi for Birthday celebrations, 96 was the year when I was the Central youth co-ordinator at the time. No, no I was central co ordinator for my region, Asia region at that time and I was given two great challenges perhaps no other central co-coordinator was given, November 25th when I left Prashanti Nilayam, I took these challenges number one to organize in February 97 the first ever Chinese New Year celebration in Puttaparthi and in July the first ever World Youth conference. Two major responsibilities were given and I was wondering how to do it and I leave Prashanti Nilayam on 25th with these two huge challenges. As I reached madras Airport I receive a telephone call from the agency there, my daughter is on the line and she says, ‘Papa, Amma passed away’,

Ted Henry: Your wife? Jegathesan: yeah my wife passed away. For me this was something, this was unreal because my wife was healthiest person in the world. I have never known her ill for just even one day. Ted Henry: and you talk about your huge love for her.

Jegathesan: I had tremendous love for my wife. It was incredible and I was stunned I mean am listening to this and I didn’t know what to say you know. I didn’t want to say this out loud you know, what non sense are you talking about, but my daughter was telling this. Anyways I was in the, I got aboard the flight and you won’t believe, it seems unreal. As I am flying I am thinking to myself, ‘No. Okay this is a dream, I am dreaming this. I am going to sleep now. I am ghoing to go back to sleep now and I say I am going to get up and I will be back in Prashanti and everything is a dream’. You won’t believe three times during the flight I tried to go back to sleep, desperately hoping this is a dream, it’s a nightmare I am going to, I will get up you know, and after the third time I realized it is real, I was going out of my mind I thought and then I thought to myself, Okay, I am going to talk like a mad men but you catch me and as I talk, ‘Swami, listen alright, I am praying, I am thinking now, okay, they must not embalm the body, if they don’t embalm the body I will bring her back. I said, there are so many stories of you know Christ and so many great Indian saints have brought dead back to life you know and Swami can do it okay so I am praying it they don’t embalm the body I will bring it back. I am going to cry to God and bring all the angels down and bring her back. So I still remember when I got down in KL and I went out and all my uncles were standing there I said, ‘Have you embalmed the body?’ they said, ‘yes,’ I caught them by the…..crazy it was. Anyway I went to the house and my wife’s body was lying in state and I cried, and I cried and cried and cried and now by the time I reached its only more than 12 hours so all the others have got over it, my relatives, my children have got over it and now they are all trying to support me and I know I should not cry. I am supposed to be a spiritual leader there and now people are crying because I am crying and I am fighting this and I am fighting, no, I mustn’t cry, mustn’t cry, mustn’t cry, mustn’t cry, ‘Jega you are a spiritual leader show your strength’, but the more I am fighting the more I am crying you know and my heart began to pain. I felt real pain so I just went upstairs to my room, locked the door and lay in a pose in Yoga called the death pose okay? I said, ‘take me, you guys you think I am afraid of you, take me’, it was a mad thing you know, take me, do you think I am scared take me, but you know you don’t die when you want to die. It takes you in your own time. Ted Henry: you wanted to be with your wife. Jegathesan: yeah you know at that moment you know, it looked like I should do this you know and no I wasn’t going to commit suicide, I mean my things take me do you think I am scared I am not scared. Then I came down and I knew I just couldn’t help I was just crying and what saved me was this was Baba came to my rescue you know. What saved me was I heard a voice, a voice as clear as I hear your voice. The voice said this, ‘Eh, who are you not to cry?’ this voice was so loud I couldn’t believe it. He said, ‘Who are you not to cry?’ the voice said using my own tradition it said, ‘Eh, who are you not to cry, when Sita was captured Rama cried, when Lakshmana was wounded Rama cried, when Abhimanyu, (Arjuna was a great warrior in the Mahabharata) when Abhimanyu was killed Arjuna cried, who are you not to cry? Cry, but don’t forget your Dharma, your duty.’ Then I let go you know, I stopped fighting it. For two days I didn’t have so many tears in my eyes I cried. Then what happened was you see this is the love of the Sai family you know, devotion you know, people were stunned around the world. They flew in from Japan, from Singapore, Hong Kong you know they flew in. When I was traveling from Prashanti to Chennai airport thinking of this responsibility I have got to organize the first ever Chinese New Year program, I knew I had to get together people from Singapore Hongkong, Japan together as a task force together you see to bring them together to organize this Chinese New Year program. So but then in the next day my wife’s body was cremated, I am coming back from the crematorium and I realized that, ‘oh My god, all the people that I need to organize Chinese New year program, this is November 26th, in Fenruary are there in here, brother that evening at 6pm, I am crying, crying, I held the first Chinese New year meeting. People were stunned, they said, ‘Jega don’t do this’, I said ‘listen if one person’s tragedy can hold back or delay a program greater than all of us because all my life, many years I am having this Chinese New year program in Prashanti, I wanted Chinese to feel that Baba is theirs also you know. I told if one person’s tragedy is going to hold back or delay a program then there is no time, there was December and January just two months then what is the use of spirituality I said. Let’s have this meeting I said. So I remember it was an incredible meeting because I look back and remember I was crying and everybody is crying and taking notes you know. But then I told them, I assigned them various duties to do, the different countries to do this, do this, then I said leave me alone for one month you know, that one month I am not supposed to go to bhajans or temple or whatever, one month mourning period, we have to prayers everyday in the house only for the departed one. Then there was the….then what happened was, this was the big drama of Swami, around about the 15th day after that I decided we took some ashes you know from and I went to Prashanti, now this is the incredible drama of Swami’s Omnipresence omniscience, the world must know this okay? You see whenever….I have heard of many stories you know of people dying, passing away and when their loved ones go to Swami, Swami will tell yes, he is with me, I was there all this okay? So now I went there, I was quite expecting that Swami would say all this. Any way I went there, lot of things happened I am not going to go into details, Swami called me and the family in and as I went into the interview room and I was about to cry, seeing my father you know after my loss you know, ‘Eh Jegathesan, Don’t cry where is your spirituality?’ he said. What a question to ask me, then he asked me ‘Who was wife before marriage? Who was mother before you were born? How many mothers have you had in your life times? How many wives you have had in your lifetimes? Don’t Cry. Then he materialized lot of things you know for my children, he gave them rings, he gave them pendants, he materialized a ring for me and I knew what he was doing. He was trying to comfort us okay? Then he called us inside for the inner room that was when the most dramatic thing took place.Bhagawan-50

Don’t forget haa…I am expecting him to say she was with me and all this and then he said, ‘Jegadeesh, you know how your wife used to pray to me? She would pray Swami I want to merge with you, I want to merge with you I want to merge with you, her time came’, now this is very interesting about this, Swami has said, ‘ The moment we are born, every human being is born the date of departure is fixed, except that its invisible to us. He said not your doctor, your medical science nothing can change the date’, I want you to understand that, now for me now, for the children now, By the way I must tell you when my wife passed away my children found her okay? They found her in a very funny situation, they found her in a padanamaskar position, you know what the padanamaskar position is? Kneeling down and touching somebody’s feet she is in that position when they found her okay, touching the position of reference, this is very interesting, children first found her in that position alright? And of course they tried to revive her and she is gone. Now come back to his room now we are in the interview room with Swami and Swami said Jegadeesh your wife used to pray I want to merge with you, merge with you, her time came, I was there’ this I am expecting then he said, ‘She did this to me’, he got up and demonstrated the padanamaskar position and then she came to me’, this was the stunning thing you know when swami got up and bent down and demonstrated physically in front of my children the Padanamskar position, for me, for my children this was the point of healing you know? And for me you know it was devastation, it was incredible you know that he should do this and tell us that a person’s time has come and he really was there, and its not that any other story that he was telling told a hundred other people. This was really the incredible moments you know of my life. It was a healing moment for my children. The healing moment for the children was that, mother had to go and that really Baba was really there you know, not just that he is telling that to comfort them you know?

Ted Henry: He put you in the eye of that storm and soon he put you in the eye of another storm.

Jegathesan: Okay, so this was in 1996, 97 we had these two programmes then came the year 2000, another most important person was my mothere, my wife and my uncle in Malaysia, next to Baba he was a great spiritual man. So can you imagine November 1996 I leave Prashanti and go home my wife is in state okay? In November 2002 exact same incident happened. November 26th I am leaving Prashanti, I take Padanamaskar from Baba, Baba gives me vibhuti, I go home my mother is lying in state. My children ask surely God has a definite scenario, can do a different scenario, how the exactly, like lightning striking twice you know. This is November then January this uncle of mine who was so close to me next to Baba he was like a mentor and guide to me, he passed away and when he passed away many people were more concerned of my reaction than even the family members reaction and febrauary my younger son, 23 year old he passed away in the most tragic circumstance. Ted Henry: This is last year? Jegathesan: Last year. November last year….no, no, not last year this year in February. February this year he passed away. He was under heavy depression you know, the guy was a very nice boy you know, very nice boy, gentle boy, he had some depression kind of syndrome and he was admitted to the hospital and they were treating him you know and he recovered very well. I mean he was so nice and recovered and in fact he saved somebody in that ward who was going to commit suicide. This guy held his hand and….the last day he was leaving he said, ‘papa can you come a bit later because he was hosting, he was MC for a public function they were having in the hospital’, the doctors were organizing some sort of a and they asked him to be the MC for it. So I went there and took him. Doctor said he is fine; take the medication he is okay now. We took him him that evening, we went out we had a big family gathering. Next morning he came, as I am going about, early morning are my prayers and then suddenly he just walked into my room, he had a bath and he came into my room, he joined me for my prayers. I took him to the Garden was plucking flowers he followed me I plucked flowers then he came, I said sing a song he sang a song then I go to office I said, ‘I will see you in the evening son’, At 4 O’clock in the office I hear news that he has jumped off a building and committed suicide. That was a it has shattered many people, especially many of the youth they were shattered. Ted Henry: How old was he? Jegathesan: 23 and the funny thing is he, my aunty is, I had an aunty across the road you know, he went across that morning after I left, he went and he was with them. Can you imagine he prayed with me, then in the morning they wanted to go to the temple, he went with them to the temple. He prayed. He had a spiritually involved life and then they came back home, he was watching television. Then he was so good and so normal, they thought, then he said, I will just go for a walk and come back’, my aunty told him, ‘okay be back in one hours time because dad’s going to come, he will want to take you out’, he went and that’s it. So this was an incredible blow, but the things is now everybody expect me to…..have you seen the movie matrix? Ted Henry: Yes. Jegathesan: okay good, you see what happens now, I tell people nowadays you know. You see in my own evolution of spirituality, let me show you how this has happened. First I thought spirituality meant ‘Seeking excellence in whatever you do’, that’s spirituality. Whatever you do, do Dharma, Seek excellence. As I evolved I realized spirituality meant not only seeking excellence in what you do, you seek excellence but some times whatever excellent you do, you may not get the result you want, then you get disappointed okay. So then ‘Seek excellence in whatever you do but dedicating every act to God.’ Then you don’t see the fruits of the action. Do and God, your will be done. That is second, second phase of my evolution. Then I realized even if we do excellent, we dedicate to god, lot of things happen in life that blow you that hurt you and then life is like a whirlwind that you have got to stand at the eye of the hurricane. But then I realized even as you stand in the eye of the hurricane watching this whorl around you going around and all the world problems, sometimes a hand will come from the hurricane and smash you as you stand there. The message to me was, this happens and when it happens don’t fall under the force and grumble Oh God why its happening, why its happening to me… you fall like the matrix, one leg you fall one knee, you know ready to leap up again, like the matrix movie, this guy is, this neo you know it exactly, exactly should be a matrix fall. Fall like the matrix guy you know ready to leap up again because this the challenge of life and people will wondering how come I am, I am going as though, I am not blaming god or anything for this you know. I said listen very simple, life is like a dark journey, why is it dark? It is unknown that’s all. You don’t know what’s happening tomorrow. You could be …and the unknown could be, tomorrow could be a disease, disaster, could be health or some loved one going, so then you need some light you know to walk this journey of life. Okay God I need light and then light is there. The light is there showing you now because this journey has got lot of holes in it and swarms in it and rocks and bushes and beautiful gardens are also there but you don’t know where to go, so light is there showing you the way, but then beside you walking with you in this journey of life is your father, mother, sister husband, wife children and everybody. As you are walking one by one they fall you know, they fall why? Go back to another thing that Baba has said, Baba has said understand, there is a very interesting lesson in here he said, again one of the beautiful things I use as a guide in my life is this. Swami says, ‘The secret of spirituality is to understand the whole world, whole life is a drama,’ I said Swami what do you mean by that it looks like Shakespeare saying that ‘All the world’s a stage and all the men and women merely players’. Then I realized its true you know, all of us are playing roles, for example sir, you, you are a playing the role of a husband in your house. You can’t play the same role outside your home okay. In your office you play a role as whatever as a whatever job you do with your mother you play a role as a son, with your uncle you play a role as a nephew, with a friend ….so we are playing many roles you know. Oddly enough depending on the role you play our costumes change, at home we are wearing something else, at office we are wearing something else, we can’t bring your office role to the house okay and if you are going swimming you are playing something else, every role we play we change our costume. Now that is the secret to understand is the secret of spirituality is to understand the whole life is a drama, that each of us are playing a role. The secret of happiness is to play your role well. That means you know is you play your role well as the best sun, as the best father, as a best mother whatever it is your role, you play well. Become the hero, see, become a hero in your own drama, we are the heroes; every person in this world is the hero in his own drama. Can you imagine you become a villain in your own drama, in your own drama of life and can you imagine people living in this world if they ultimately write their own autobiography it is so boring you know, you got to read your own story. Make your story an exciting challenge and this is the message Swami has given me, to make your story of your life, you are the hero of your own drama, you become the hero, don’t become the villain. So this particular lesson, the secret of spirituality is to understand the whole life is drama, the secret of happiness play your role well. So likewise you know in this particular drama of life in a stage, like Romeo and Juliet, youlike the role of a guy called Tibult for example suddenly halfway through the drama Tibult gets killed, brilliant actor, beautiful guy you can’t say I want Tibult back because he, the lines are over. He has got to go. You can’t cry and whatever it is his lines are over, likewise now in life my son’s lines are over he finished. His role was over and Omar Khayyam said, ‘the moving finger writes, having written moves on, neither your tears or …….can bring back one drop of or one inch of it okay, like this but you see because of the fact that my mother is falling, my wife is falling, I cannot cry, I still need that life, my journey is not ended yet. My role is not over yet okay. I still need the light. Ted Henry: Jega, one final question, Sai Baba has thrown at you many lessons, he has thrown at you many tests, you are still on your feet who is this Sai Baba? Jegathesan: Oh yeah! You see one day somebody asked me this question, they asked me in a book I wrote called question answers and they asked me, this question I asked myself those days. Somebody asked me Is Baba God? So I asked this person listen, I have not seen God, so what is the definition of God for a Christian it looked like somebody who looked like Christ for a Hindu it will be somebody looking like Rama, for a Chinese it would look like somebody else you know so no where in the scriptures of the world is God described by physical features but in every scripture of the world god is described by his characteristics love, compassion, omniscience, omnipresence, he can create, he can destroy, he can move things, he can be many places at one time so, he can bring the dead back to life. The scriptures of the world whether Hindu scriptures or Muslim scriptures or Christian scriptures describe God by his characteristics. Imagine now suddenly there is one person in the world who is displaying not to one or two people but to millions all the characteristics that man has ascribed to divinity so we have here walking someone who is an incarnation of a divine I call it a divine principle why I say that? I don’t use the word god you know why because God if I say, if I have a roomful of people and I say think of God, everybody will think of a different image, the Christian will think of Christ, I mean the Hindus will think of a whole bunch of god forms okay they will think of Krishna, they will think of Rama, they will think of Subramaniam god himself will be under identity crisis. Who I am? So the word God creates a conditioned reflex. So I am trying to remove the conditioned reflex okay. So if we have one person in the world today who is manifesting not to one or two but to millions all the characteristics of divinity that man had ascribed to divinity so we have an incarnation of divine principle now anyone wants to prove it go and experience yourself So for me he is such a divine force that is guiding us doesn’t mean that because he guides you know we cannot, we will not face problems in life that is part of the Karmic challenge we have got. But as long as but I still need that light, he is the light that guides me, he is the light that tells me the things I can do. I can rise above mediocrity and achieve something great, something significant and the basic ultimately, dear brother what is it now man seeks in life, two things in Sanskrit it is called Sukha and Shanti, peace and happiness and contentment. Ted Henry: and is this light accessible to everybody. Jegathesan: Yes, the light is accessible to everybody except that it is like H2O you know water is accessible to everybody but you must know where to dig for the water. You can’t say water, I want water, water is not going to come okay. Either you are a scientist who brings two parts of Hydrogen together with one part of oxygen to get water. Or you dig a hole you get water or you go seeking for a river to get water, likewise the same divine water, this nectar but people must search for it. Where is the formula for searching for this, in the scriptures, its in the bible, its in the Koran its in the Dhammapada and is that a different thing no, you look at this now the way we pray , a person prays, the way people pray in a church is different from the way they pray in a mosque, the words they say may be different, the language different is different from how they say in a temple but amazing thing is this the moment the Christian in a Church, the Buddhist in a Buddhist temple, the Muslim in a mosque or a Hindu in a Hindu temple, the moment they walk out of the hall of prayer what they are expected to do to get God’s grace is exactly the same. The Ten Commandments relevant to everybody whether it’s a Christian or a Buddhist. The Hindu what they think Mata, Pita Guru daivam, Mother father teacher God, also to honor their father and mother, the commandments actually are very simple. It’s just that we have compromised, we have compromised we choose not to follow. And therefore and how do you know God has come into your life, very simple question. How do you know God is not going to come you know in heavenly form in depending upon your tradition and tell you this is the….you will collapse and have heart attack if he comes in front of you. For me it’s the peace and contentment that we have in life. Come what may Eh God, you are with me and you must become the manifestation. If you believe that God is love, you must become the manifestation of love. If you think God is peace you must become manifestation of peace then God is with you. Ted Henry: Jegathesan thank you very much! Sai Ram! Jegathesan: Sai Ram, Sai ram.

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